Here is a transcript of a meeting a couple of months after Stewart Traill admitted to missing grace. He never said that he was sorry. He never allowed the brothers and sisters to express their thoughts, their feelings, and their opinions about it. The significance of this transcript is that a brother who was a member of the church confronted him and at this meeting questioned him on the things that Stewart Traill himself had said. Stewart Trail seemed angry and annoyed that someone would dare question him on his thoughts, his policies, his behavior, and his wrongdoings. Stewart Traill, at the grace meeting, floated this whole idea about true Christians not sinning, and Traill also said that no one was born again except he and Gail; he also uttered other false teachings and fallacies.
[On recorder: File A-30]
(It seems as though a group was together, and then Stewart arrives... and begin to record conversation)
A brother speaking said: “…for the good of others, I think he has been holding back, when we get together, that’s the reason
Stewart Traill speaking: Nope
Brother: He was more obvious. I do see hopeful signs too, I do see some brothers really trying to at least lay down their lives for their brethren, I see some trying …
Another brother said: I do too.
Stewart Traill said: Motivated too.
1st brother: but I think we have to do so all the more, to help the weaker ones …
Most of group reply: I do too
Another brother spoke up: So far, a few brothers have said that we see each other more as individuals and some holding back, some more encouraged and giving of themselves and that’s about as far as we’ve gotten, we just started to discuss it.
Stewart: Well, those of us that are more encouraged, then let’s encourage those that aren’t as encouraged.
All agree enthusiastically, and one brother could be heard saying: “Thank you Jesus”
Another brother speaks: I think it’s like a time of testing and to be patient to see where Jesus is leading us and to see where we’re going to be as a fellowship exactly and all the more do the best we can and trust Jesus.
All agree enthusiastically.
A brother said: Last night we were discussing that we can practice what we do know, which I’m fully into, which is staying at home and God’s love for me and loving one another and confessing my belief to others, ya know, even the whole thing of witnessing, not really sure exactly what I’m gonna say, but just confessing my belief, looking for Jesus’ sheep. The things we do know, we can practice those.
Most agree.
Anther brother said: And what he’s revealed to us, he keeps us
A lot agree and say “Thank you Jesus”
He continued: I see Jesus keeping me and keeping other brothers.
A lot of positive response and agreement as a group
Stewart: The same faith that says, “He’s gonna save me, has to say: “He’s gonna keep me from sin too”
Group agreement
Stewart: Anything less is not faith, therefore, ‘Anything that does not proceed from faith is sin’ [Rom 14:23] You can’t pick and chose his words. Remember he said, “Be sure of this that no impure and on and on, no sinner will inherit, that means: No sinner is a child of God, in Eph 5:5
| Eph 5:5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. (added during scribing of recording verse referred to) |
All agree
Stewart: Inherits the promise, therefore, he’s not walking by faith, whoever that one is that does, therefore he hasn’t yet come to repentance, but there’s hope for him, but ah, he can never be there, my, that’s an awful thing, and there’s no need to.
Stewart: Now, the next verse, after: “No one who sins is a child of God” that’s what it says, the next verse is: “Let no one deceive you with empty words” Eph 5:6 Yeah, you can sin, it’s all right, remember he said, “I warned you, as I warned you before”? [Gal 5:20]
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Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, Gal 5:20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, Gal 5:21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. (added during scribing) |
Group: No
Stewart: How is it that that is so common? I hope you all realize that God is saving us.
Everyone: Yes!! I realize it!
Stewart: And, he’s making a way for us, he wouldn’t show us if he wasn’t making a way, so, what’s the problem? And why is anyone discouraged? It’s not hard.
(Sounds like Jim Greiner: The only thing that I can see as a problem is more of us pulling together as a “we” instead of lonely Christians, that’s the only thing that comes to my mind.
Another brother said: “We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak. [Rom 15:1]
Stewart: We always do that one way or another, really, what’s different? It’s just that we know where we stand… (most agree) that’s the only thing that’s different, we have a sure way of telling it. If we value him, we can tell where we stand and how to proceed, is that all that’s new?
A brother said: I was reading Ephesians 5:5 (proceeded to read vs. 5 & 6:
| Eph 5:5 Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. Eph 5:6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. |
Stewart: “Let no one deceive you” with what?
Brother: “With empty words”
Stewart: “With empty words” – contrary to the sound teaching of the Apostles, but there’s no reason to fear. Is anybody discouraged because they figure they haven’t reached repentance?
One said: I have
Stewart: “Well there’s no reason to be discouraged, now you have a sure guide and “Is Jesus calling you?”
Brother answered: Yeah
Stewart: Well don’t forget the first thing: “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish” [Jn 10:27,28] Don’t get into a new score card now; remember the basics, a new kind of score card. “Oh, I haven’t reached repentance yet, now I know, before I didn’t… What are you calling time?
Brother who read Eph: Well, I should speak to the brothers about what I did Monday morning …
Stewart: Wait a minute, you don’t understand about time, you know yourself that there’s lots of men walking around here that are totally in sin, totally lost in sin, and some of them in what you call time will soon repent and they’ll come to know Jesus, and be his children, it’s only the way we look at time, that ah, there’s no time to him. So all you have is a better guide. Thank you Jesus.
Others: Thank you Jesus.
Jim Greiner: He took us out of darkness and brought us into his marvelous light. [1 Pe 2:9] Lots of agreement and someone said: “By the grace of God only”
Someone said: I know what helps me a lot is I keep going to that one verse: He who began a good work in you will bring it to completion. [Php 1:6] And it matters less to me where along the line I am, I know that he started his work in me and he will bring it to completion. (lots of agreement from others) and where I am along that path in a way who really cares… Stewart: You try wailing: “Ohh I’m only his sheep, I’m only guaranteed eternal life, ohh” that’s what you have to do, “Ohh, I’m only guaranteed eternal life.. Do you claim you’re his sheep? (loud “Yes”) You’re guaranteed eternal life. Ohh, I don’t see it yet and I can’t figure it out and handle it, well, we never will anyway, you have some idea that those who have been born anew are in control of it or something? No way.
Stewart: And another thing, you notice that the fellowship of the brothers is more sober recently (all agree) Is that an improvement or not? Let’s here some more to the praise of God.
Brother: And to the ones on the edges there a lot more withdrawn because ah, I talked to Hilton about two days ago and I told him what happened at the meeting and for the first time Hilton ever stood and talked to me and he was like: “This is amazing, this is really good, I’m coming over to see some more”
Stewart: That’s very encouraging to me
Brother: That’s how he was
Stewart: That has to happen
Brother: He was just like: This is, I’m marveling at this, this is really clear and he was really wanting to come over and the next day he came over.
Another Brother spoke up: He’s been talking to me almost every day, he used to not say anything. A few weeks ago he wouldn’t say anything, even I’d see him, he’d just go away
(Sounds like Bob Whipple said: Dave Rizzetto said today that he sees it more clearer and clearer that what Jesus showed us is the truth and that the issue with him is that he hasn’t surrendered.
Stewart: How much are you doing? Your spirit knows it’s true. Your spirit knows it’s true. (group agreement) What is God’s will, to sin or not sin? (Group reply: not sin) You promised to do it,
A brother said: That one line does seem to work very good about, “well, which would you rather be true?” That approach really seems to get under the, or straight through all the games and stuff.
Stewart: Which would you prefer: here you see it all over the place: Come to your right minds and (everyone together says:) … sin no more! [1 Co 15:34] So Peter and Paul and Jesus are telling you to do something impossible. [at 31:31]
A brother said: I know what the Bible speaks of is true, but I disagree with how it’s being presented.
Stewart: Alright
Brother continues: There’s a verse here in Job, it says: How can a man be righteous before God. How can he who was born of woman be clean? [Job 25:4] Behold, even the moon is not bright and the stars are not clean in his sight; how much less a man ..
Stewart interrupted reading: now Jay!
Jay tried to continue: … who is a maggot
Stewart: Jay! Jay would you stop it?!
Jay finishes reading verse: … and the son of man, who is a worm.
Stewart: Jay would you stop it? .
Other brothers join Stewart in trying to get Jay to stop reading the Bible saying his name over and over.
Stewart: Now does he have to leave again? Are you gonna behave yourself Jay? .
Jay: Behave myself? .
Stewart: Are you going to? .
Jay: According to whose standards, yours or my fathers? .
Stewart: Are you gonna listen or not? .
Jay: Read Isaiah 6.
Everyone chimed in together that they didn’t want to hear anything else.
Jay: It’s been helping me a lot ….
Stewart: Jay! Are you gonna interrupt or are you gonna let me finish Jay? .
Jay: Please finish. .
Stewart: Are you gonna interrupt. Are you gonna be rude, downright rude? .
Jay: I’m not gonna let you continue to do what you’re doing. .
Sounded like Bob Whipple said: Answer the question.
Stewart: Jay, since you said you’re gonna be quiet.
Jay: I think you’re leading these brothers in pride, in the name of Jesus.
Stewart: Jay, since you said you’re gonna be quiet and let me finish, (louder) since you said you’re going to, part of your error is, those that never sin again have not been born of woman, your verse there is speaking under the Old Covenant: Man who is born of woman cannot be clean, that’s right, I’ve been born anew and it’s not of woman, Jay, as part of your error.
Jay: I agree with that, but there’s more to it than that and you know it.
Stewart: And you shouldn’t be reading that scripture, in this way.
| Note: 2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God and profitable … |
Stewart interrupts: you’re right, the new nature does not sin..
Jay continues:. who were born not of blood, nor the will of the flesh, nor the will of man, but of God, who were born, you destroyed a lot of brothers and sisters confidence in their salvation, that they’re not even born again (referring to a previous meetings teaching)
The group loudly disagrees and has a loud murmuring that opposes Jays comment: everyone talks loudly at once, it’s hard to distinguish what’s being said, one can be heard to say, ‘no one’s destroyed my confidence in my salvation, another says: no, it’s the opposite, but it’s definitely loud and everyone is speaking at once so that it’s hard to know what they’re saying, but they are as a group challenging Jay’s comment.
Jay speaks up over the crowd: They’re walking around with question marks on their foreheads, and they’re asking someone else about the questions that you’re questioning.
The group loudly protests together saying: That’s not true
Jay: How can you tell someone about being born again when you don’t have confidence yourselves?
A brother said: Hey Jay!
Jay: You better read Isaiah 6! [The 1st time he said it the crowd was loud so he made sure he was heard by repeating louder:]
You better read Isaiah 6!
Stewart: Are you gonna give us peace? Is he gonna give us peace?
It sounded like Bob Whipple asked: Are you gonna give us peace?
Jay: Hey, Jesus is not pleased.
Bob W: Jay, are you gonna give us peace or are you gonna go on?
Jay: Hey, you’re God’s sons and you’re wrong, you’re being led the wrong way, whether intentionally or unintentionally I don’ know, but you’re being led the wrong way. Jesus is coming and you’re getting into something else that’s totally controversial …
[the whole time he was saying the previous statement very clearly the group was loudly trying to stop him from speaking]
Bob W very loud: Jay! Jay! Are you gonna give us peace or are you gonna go on?
Jay: That all depends on what you consider peace? And I’m not one who is here to be ..
Cut off someone asks: Are you answering the question?
The group all answers for him loudly: Noooooooooooo
A brother says: Brothers, you need to be dismissed.
Stewart: Is he gonna be rude or is he gonna sit silent? What do the brothers want?
Group answers loudly: Silence!
Jay: May I read one more thing and I’ll be silent?
Group answers loudly: Noooooooooooo
Jay: It’s God’s word
Group answers loudly: Noooooooooooo
Bob W: Brothers, do you think he should promise that he’s gonna be quiet?
Group answers loudly: Yes!
Stewart: Why are you disruptive anyway? That’s not God’s spirit. That’s not God’s spirit to be disruptive and rude, isn’t that right Jay?
Jay: It’s not God’s spirit to control people the way you do.
Stewart: Jay you’re not answering, are you being rude?
Jay: I don’t think I am.
Stewart: Ask everyone, do you despise the whole body?
Jay: No I don’t.
Stewart: Well than ask them.
Jay: Brothers, do you think I am being rude?
Group answers loudly: Yes! Very rude. A brother speaks up: Jay, if you were loving your brothers you wouldn’t be insisting on what you’re doing right now, because love does not insist on its own way.
Stewart: I’m only trying to figure out a way to help him.
Jay: Brothers, I really mean no harm, I really don’t.
A brother asks: Well then are you going to promise to behave and sit quietly for the rest of the meeting?
Jay: A promise to you or to Jesus?
A bunch respond: To us, To all of us brothers?
Jay: Because if the Lord be God’s servant, if you be God then I’ll listen to you.
Someone asks: Are you gonna listen to the brothers’ fellowship Jay or are you gonna do your own thing?
Jay: Brothers listen, you’re in prison and you don’t even realize it
Bob: Don’t you see that we’re only trying to find a way to help you? All of us?
Jay: I apologize for being rude, I pushed my way, that’s wrong…
Jim Greiner interrupts Jay: Does this apology stand for you’re going to make a promise to sit there quiet for the rest of the meeting yes or no?
Jay: I can’t promise that.
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Observation made by scriber of tape who was not there: When the speaker Jay originally began to contribute there had been a long pause and he seemed to want to share an insight with a scripture, before he was given the courtesy to finish his verse and make his comment the speaker Stewart cut him off from making his point and then accused him of being rude and interrupting. From this observers view it seems that others comments are not welcome and anyone who has a different perspective is cut off, not allowed to make their observations without being interrupted and then are accused of being rude and disruptive. Had the speaker Jay been able to read his reference and make his comment the meeting might have proceeded without any problem, but when issue was taken with someone who had a contribution, especially a scripture, the group insisting on a ‘sit down and shut up’ stance is making a statement that no one else’s opinions are wanted in this group and that its acceptable to be insulting to those who have a different view. Stewart interrupted but accused Jay of interrupting and being rude and proceeded to get the rest of the group involved in accusing Jay until Jay himself admits to rudeness? This group dynamic seems to ostracize anyone with a different view.
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Jay: Jesus is coming brother Stewart and you were told to forget everything that you’ve learned…
The whole group loudly interrupts
A brother says: If you were looking at what’s going on, you’re just going to hurt yourself.
Jay: Hurting myself?! That right there is of little importance right now.
Bob W: Do we want peace in our meeting?
Group loudly: Yeah!! Yes!
Bob W to Jay: You must be silent. You must be silent Jay. Group: Yes!
Jay: Isaiah chapter 6 brothers. Please, please! Please! Isaiah chapter 6
Stewart: Is someone watching him? You should watch him right brothers?
Group responds: Yes
Stewart: That’s what a brothers fellowship should do, or he could hurt himself.
There was a bit of jostling around for a minute.
Stewart: I think there’ll be a great deal of excitement as the truth gets stronger and stronger.
Jim G: Because again, it takes away the hiding places, because no place to hide and God makes it very clear where everybody stands.
Group: Yup
Jim G: Thank you Jesus, I’m glad to know where I stand. Group: Agrees loudly.
Someone says: I testify that I know clearly where I stand.
Anther brother says: I have more confidence in the day of judgment than I’ve ever had in my life.
Anther responds: Same here! A lot more confidence, more assurance.
Stewart: And you haven’t seen anything yet.
Someone says: Thank you Jesus.
Stewart: That’s only the tip of the ice berg, remember, something has been very wrong with the way we’ve been looking at the New Covenant. Something’s been very wrong, in our lives and in our understanding, something’s been very wrong. This is the tip of the iceberg.
Jim G: It’s a marvel, because God chose, at this time in life or whatever…
Someone says: I’m amazed I’m here!
Someone agrees: I’m amazed I’m here too! Thank you Jesus! I really do marvel, yeah!
Stewart: You’re not yet aware of the confidence that’s available by being able to walk around and say, “I don’t see any contradictions in the New Testament” that everything makes sense. You know, the word ‘mind’ is very important, a lot more so than I ever thought. The last thing Christians want to hear, the word ‘mind’, but ah it’s very important. Not that minds save us, but it’s very important part of God’s plan.
Stewart: How much do you still see what’s a contradiction in the New Testament, what’s an apparent contradiction, things that don’t make sense?
Group speaks at once: some